It’s quite obvious..and worrisome for those who cannot relate to history and facts.( click on picture for full size). At least the genes aren’t lost, but for how long? How many people defend the old breed other than me?
After repeating over and over … …and over that I needed to do totals on Ermengarda’s /Coccolina’s name in pedigrees around the Barbet world..I finally sat down and did it. Extremely time consuming because done with a paper and pencil….BUT , the exercise does give you time to understand many ” things” in our organized Barbet world.
As a simple example for a start..
Colleen in Sweden. Colleen had litters with Luddelumps and Quaciendas. Then she had issues, never resolved with the club who set her aside. Luddelumps was the first breeder to have Barbets in Sweden. They were also cast side for xyz reasons. Brush away 1.
Totals: 17 pups. Her line contributed 11 pups
Cooper. A litter of 6 because the type and background history at the time was not appropriate. Breeders turned to breeders for studs. Caspar, progeny gave 4 pups in 2016. When you compare with other studs and usage, you draw your own conclusions.
Comparing who did and said what and their influence on decisions is enlightening when keeping in mind the cyno-political situation of the time.
Chi chi l’Amoroso. In Finland, they are under a state of PEVISA which means each stud can only sire litters which total 15 pups. That is exactly what he did. The cyno-political situation there is more about crossbreedings to fabricate hunting dogs than carrying on a line or a breed. The examples from the past few years confirm that.
Caya in France. Caya had 10 pups with Bepop which was nice at the time ( a Barbet I kept under my roof for 10 months to help get the breed started in the UK/ you’re welcome). He is in the pedigree of 132 dogs. Many breeders making the trip to the UK for the color in his line. His son Dudley who was not ever supposed to breed, placed and taken back produced 42 pups. Many in Dutch pedigrees produced the type of the line. Many also came from as far as Switzerland to mate with Netis Hazzah his son, who has produced 48 pups to this date. Caya’s total branch so far is 132. Most of the people who went to the UK did so also because it was best not to talk to me anymore since I had already voiced my opinion on what was happening, in our organized Barbet world.
Climax was in 2010/2011/2012 just before SYMPOSIUM catastrophe when the research I had been conducting mostly on my own led me straight to Poodle references and crosschecked facts. No good for the breed or its governing authorities. The Poodle already existed. There had to be another track…Since 2003, I had spent a lot of time, but the conclusions were there. This is when it tipped into nastiness, bad mouthing and warnings of different sorts by the voices of knowledge around the world. People had been happy with the “Poodle” bit and it made everything much easier that working on a breed threatened with extinction. I had voiced my concernS with what was going on and disapproved of it, publicly as I do today and will continue to do so. That was the kiss of death for Elaine.
So facts in front of their blind eyes that they chose to ignore in order to continue down their own path laid out by internet stories and copy and pasted hi- (socute) stories. A very lucrative business could come to an end if too many listened to me..
Now the case of Charly..I was very lucky to keep in touch with his owner and family who could think on their feet and assess the goodwill of the different protagonists who came through their domicile and studding was not really in their wishes or objectives. Charly is in 86 pedigrees as some were “refused” a mating. Not into cyno-politics.
Chesara. 1 litter but…her progeny Ela Samba did the rest..85 times she appears in pedigrees. No cyno-politics on this side of the French border, but her situation was much different in her country of residence due to cyno-politicking and the likes making her life difficult.
Compay II. Due to collaboration, interactive help and support..with some, he has reached a stunning figure of close to 400 since all of his litters are not up to date in database. At some point in time, I did think it was a lot..but what is a lot with others re-using studs which are far from breed standard. After all..
From looking at the names of the breeders and who did what, historically it is interesting to follow a thread. This is where it can be compared to the past and who did what when, too. I have that information. More the reason to shut me up.
That is what got me thinking about what went on in the 1980’s. On a much smaller scale, but many parallels. Badmouthing, alternative facts..and paving the way to?
Back then, it was very easy to substitute dogs in matings/pedigrees..The first one being Lynx/Ops mating which probably never took place since our famous color genetics specialist would say it was not possible for always having so much to say about everything..along with some facts about him not being interested in reproduction. BUT of course anything is possible with a mutation or whatever supports the other truth about the breed.
Then, we most often talk about Mrs Pêtre but never about the other 2 breeders around Paris who must have helped each other especially in the mid-80’s when there were 2 clubs fighting for SCC statute. Ring a bell? Well a sentence keeps coming back to my mind said by the late Françoise Loiseau..when she saw them arm in arm in 2005..at a club show. Tiens, tiens..
Looking at who owned who and who went to shows and did this and that is of great help trying to wade through the types produced which would connect some of the dots to the 70’s and… before. That alone would be out of question for someone wanting to re-create a breed from scratch along with the fame connected to it.
In the early 80’s lots went on that has influenced /have an impact on the present, but we do not know that it if we just look at pedigrees. The cyno-political context is of utmost importance. That has not changed. What has not changed either is the desire of both sides to continue in their path. One for truth and the other for fear of truth and what derives from it. Derive is a very good word in this case for its multiple meanings: to obtain a substance from another/to “get” something from something else. That is basically what has happened to the breed: it has been derived and to such an extent that coming back to the source will be or is literally impossible. The breed is seen as degenerating here and there in photographs and forums, another interesting word : Public medium (such as a newspaper column) or place used for debates in which anyone can participate. In Roman times it meant a public place at the center of a market or town where open discussions on judicial, political, and other issues were held. In FB times, it means only those who know very little or nothing and are not a threat, can post.
Others are invited to stay away. That is our Barbet organized world today…but take some time to digest your facts, if that is what they are and on that happy note..enough said for today.. back to more research!
Reading…between the lines to learn..!!
For all of you who do not speak French, or read it…It is very hard to understand what has been going on in the Barbet organized world since the 1980’s (or even before, really). I can also understand that many have this “rise above” attitude or “go with the flow”..and stay away from the “nastiness”.
This letter is a fine example to read between the lines. To do so, you need to have a lot of background information and not many have it. Do you? Who was your source? That will also make a difference.
Anyway, right now I will give you some insight into how it went. 1 example for now as a teaser.
A breeder and secretary of the Club des Amis du Barbet writes to the SCC to complain about the pdt of the Club du Barbet’s behaviour vis à vis future buyers of Barbet pups from sources in the “enemy camp”. Who is the enemy camp?
It’s about the attitude of JC Hermans, pdt of the club du Barbet. He claims a litter as being of ” bad quality” when he has not even seen the litter…and they ARE>>> SCC registered!
In the second paragraph, he describes the SCC registered litter of another person as of “not good quality”. The parents should have never been confirmed and the owners never even showed them. Says he.
Well, they did and there is proof.
JCHermans is questioning the competences of SCC judges.
People kept calling the writer of the letter to complain to her, or they wrote to her by snail mail so there are lots of records ( which I have a small collection of). The issue was always about his attitude and how unbearable it was, in a position of power enough to allow himself to flaunt it.
Hermans always wanted to discourage the other club (CAB) members from having any litters and told people who enquired to wait til his club members had litters and/or sent people to another breed. In this case it was to Bearded Collie breeders…In essence he was making sure the pups from the enemy were not sold.
>>>>Of course YOU knew there were 2 clubs? ( my comment)
Further, the dogs from JCH club were not on the selection grid and his decisions were totally arbitrary.
She is hoping the SCC will react..
>>> There are lots of parallels to be drawn in this situation and not much has evolved in 30 years and everyone is involved. If you do not know who is who and who did what..how can any info you get, be true and trustworthy. Even the official breed clubs do not have a full deck of cards and mistreat or brush away vital facts about a breed you want to breed and know nothing about.
>>>Not a healthy situation. Or is it? Based on?
So, before you go anywhere, get the full story or ask questions to the right people and get facts. Just mho.
It’s about Hercule di Barbochos Reiau de Prouvenco. With the breed club, he was almost in the same position as Ulysse is and has been, meaning banned. Hercule was a working dog. Had BCE and had done German tests.
When some indelicate breeders claim indelicately that some of their dogs are international working champions, there are none especially not in the Barbet since they are not allowed in any field trials. This is a good example and shows another level of…incompetence and lack of knowledge of a breed. Sadly so.
Heureux de retrouver un excellent barbet dont la race en France semble en perdition.
Ce sujet est( ?) excellent? exposé dans son ensemble extérieur et son équilibre me rappelle les barbets
que m’ont fait connaitre les Pouchins, Fréville, Bazin et autres.
Happy to see an excellent barbet again of a breed in great distress.
This particular one shown is excellent overall and reminds me of the Barbets the following judges taught me to appreciate: Mr Poucin, Fréville, Bazin and others…
The above judges were basically all banned from judging any Barbets as the breed was replaced by a genepoodle of oodles.
Since 1994 to this date even moreso, the breed club is responsible for the decline of what was never promoted as a hunter and sold as a matted poofed tight curled ballerina-toed oodle, that has not any type of identity and can be confused/ mistaken for a Labradoodle, Spanish Water Dog or Poodle. Commonly now called a portuguse Poodle ( for the new colors on tall shaved dogs).
Sad fate for a dog caused by lack of any competence of the authorities who are supposed to “manage” it.
An official veterinary thesis was written in 1991, by O. Chapusot, for the ECOLE NATIONALE VETERINAIRE D’ALFORT, in France. It dealt with the Barbet past ( 1930 ) and present. This means that the 2 lines were dealt with.
Among other items covered in the thesis was the weight of puppies.
It is, of course, very important to have documented weight curves and whenever possible, share them. Not much has been done to that effect other than what we manage to get ahold of once in a while. Most everything is kept hushhush for some unknown reasons.
In a club bulletin a few years ago, a breeder had published the weight curve of his litter. I believe that was the only time I have ever seen anything having to do with the subject since the weights given by Dr Vincenti of the Mas de la Chapelle kennel in the 30’s. This thesis used these weights and compared them to the Modern Barbet ( yes, it exists regardless of some sites claiming there is only one breed).
Finally today, through 2 completely different litters, I was able to pull out the document and check the veracity of the information.
Here you have a photo of 2 pups. One is from what I would like to call an “old” line and the other from a “modern” one. The composition of the litters relies mostly on what kennel names you want to work with or stay away from for various reasons.
The black pup is 8 weeks old and the brown one, 9. There is a 2-kilo difference between these 2 females. That is documented below in the chart.
When planning a litter, it is vital to take all aspects of the stud or female ( I don’t use word bitch, because I don’t like it). This means the lineage, the size, the weight, the coat type, the morphology ( defects of the one or the other), not just 0% inbreeding as often is the case ( mixing oranges and apples) and how you can come out with something even better. I said absolutely nothing about breeding for color.
An “old” line female’s adult size would be 50-ish to great maximum 55cms. (some of the Griffon types with Chien de Crau are around 55)
A “modern” line female will size up to 61+ cms, with many around 58/59cms. They mostly have Poodle in the pedigree (some PWD) + Canaille de Verbaux (kennel) which, when selected only on curls ( tight/ frizzy) and known for very long legs with “lots of air between the legs” give us the dogs we very often see today.
Below is the weight curve of a litter in 2002. Tiboubou is Booly Wooly’s father. His weight at 2 months was 7 kilos. Son Booly Wooly’s was the same. Tiboubou is 64 cms. Booly Wooly is 59.5 and weighs 23kilos, about the same as his father. It was important to be able to follow up on this information years later to crosscheck it.
It will be extremely interesting to follow the growth of these 2 little girls and see if they fit the pattern. I think they will, what do you think? The male was about 7kilos.
If you are wondering why the breed club in France does nothing about the Barbet any more, wonder no more: there is “only” one type, because there is too much animosity among breeders to admit to 2 and secondly, they have very little information on the breed’s evolution historically and in the last 30 years.
Here is a link to another weight chart: http://barbety.pl/en/2013/08/26/monitoring-weights/